BLACK EGPYT?

[3l3m3ntal]

Despite the refusal of the Secretary General of the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities, Zahi Hawass, to release any DNA results which might indicate the racial ancestry of Pharaoh Tutankhamen, the leaked results reveal that King Tut’s DNA is a 99.6 percent match with Western European Y chromosomes. Approximately at 1:53 of this video!!

A mitochondrial genome or Y chromosome tells absolutely nothing about the population from which the individual descends; it only tells about one person who reproduced with another person in that population some number of generations ago.

Also, care to inform us of which sub branch of this DNA might be, because there are several, North African being one of them.

I would also be interested in seeing the REAL screenshots, not something some conspiracy theorist posted on Youtube to substantiate his claim.

But the point being is Tut was an Egyptian Pharoah. Sub-branch was Western European.

Here's the problem with what you're posting. Neither mtDNA or YDNA is capable of identifying "ethnic groups." Test such as these will conclude that a black of West African heritage has YDNA or paternal line descends to central Europe. It is certainly not a true science. Especially since it limits to only two specific ancestors. mtDNA and Y-chromosome are a very small part of one's genetic composition. Ten generations ago, you have about a thousand ancestors. Your parents only contribute to 1/1000th of your genome, which is next to nothing.

And for one who rules out any argument from a Afrocentric position, I am surprised you use mtDNA haplogroup classification which is entirely a Eurocentric creation.

STFU.

There are identifying genetic markers and haplogroups. In fact, because King Tut is an amazing 99.7 R1b maintains he had a very strong ethnic lineage, not delineated over 1000s of years with over ethnics. Nice try.

Your response pretty much solidifies that you have no idea about what you are posting.

Your source is a test that has linked people black as night from the Middle of Africa to European ancestry. That alone proves its highly inaccurate, a small probability, aka a shot in the dark.

What are you talking about? Seriously! http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_ ... oups.shtml

I find it a bit odd however, that King Tut is 99.6 match as someone who is of European descent, seeing his grandmother is Queen Tiye, a Nubian, as determined by the remains of her father Yuya, along with:



Queen Tiye, the wife of Amenhotep III, was the mother of Akhenaten, who was also a pharaoh.

Here is the exhibit of Egyptian art showing the art depictions of Amenhotep III.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mVqz548mHk[/youtube]

Lemme guess, that is a depiction of a Caucasian?? So with all these dark skin people as King Tuts kin, some how he is 99% white European lol.. You base all of your other theories on skin tones found in the artwork, lets see if you do so in this instance. Perhaps you will tell me that this was not indicative of Amenhotep III's features or skin tone?

So Queen Liye and Amenhotep III were dark skinned, of Nubian descent. Akhenaten their son, I would imagine would be the same as his biological parents. Akhenaten, father of King Tut.

Do you always trust conspiracy theory videos on You Tube? Seems from my searches, your theory tends to pop up on a lot of white supremacist sites.

Since you want to tell people to STFU, I think it is time to just step away from this discussion. You offer no real substantial evidence, other then a random You Tube video and your opinion.

Since when has Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III been called Nubian? Seems from my searches this "Nubian" theory pops up on alot of Afrocentrists / black supremacist sites. As far as you encounters with white supremacists sites, that is going to happen likewise me with those Afrocentrist sites / blogs ect. I try to use Egyptian, Mediterranean, archeaological, anthropological and academic sources exclusively. Let me give you a clue, those sculptures of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III are wooden. Did you know that?

Furthermore, fresh cut wood is very, very light but darkens tremendously with age. I wonder if these sculptures were placed in the tombs themselves, sealed and forgotten. But here, lets take a look at the mummies themselves.

YUYAYuya



QUEEN THUYA


AMENHOTEP III



QUEEN TIYE



AKHENATEN mummy

[BlackMagicDiamond]

Just a thought that came to my mind. Dont you think that something is a bit unethical about Egyptologists digging up bones and dead bodies and showing them on display like that? We cant forget that these were actual real people and I just think its a bit disrespectful to be grave robbing tombs like that. Just a thought

[mikestone]

Since when has Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III been called Nubian? Seems from my searches this "Nubian" theory pops up on alot of Afrocentrists / black supremacist sites. As far as you encounters with white supremacists sites, that is going to happen likewise me with those Afrocentrist sites / blogs ect. I try to use Egyptian, Mediterranean, archeaological, anthropological and academic sources exclusively. Let me give you a clue, those sculptures of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III are wooden. Did you know that?

Well, since Tiye fathers is said to have been Nubian, makes sense his daughter would be as well...

The bulk of scholarly opinion states Tiye was the daughter of two Nubian commoners, Yuya and Thuya, both of whom were Amun priests.

And the auburn hair, a common trick used to cover greying during that time.

Lets make this clear, as you seem to misrepresent the "leak" of King Tuts DNA as someone with actual access to the test results releasing them. No, the video and opinion you post as fact resembles most conspiracy theories, it reminds me of a 9-11 video or a video demonstrating why Obama is a Kenyan lol.. It merely offers little but fodder for those who want to believe its truths.

Once again.... no one with access to Tut's DNA has ever made it public.

Furthermore, fresh cut wood is very, very light but darkens tremendously with age. I wonder if these sculptures were placed in the tombs themselves, sealed and forgotten. But here, lets take a look at the mummies themselves.

That wood certainly looks to have a finish, doubt it is from aging. The wood would turn black, not brown if it were a result of oxidization.

Of course, not all wood darkens with age, some actually lighten. But if you are claiming the wood has darkened from oxidization, it would not turn brown. Also, are you suggesting that wood oxidizes evenly? The colors on that statue look pretty intentional, no signs of color variation, the whole statue seems to be one intentional color to me.

But once again, there is no link between your "evidence" in determining ethnicity. From what I read, R1b appears naturally in Egypt and North Africa in about 10% of the male population. It dates all the way back to the ice ages. So if Tut had it, why it is important? Since it exists in both European and Northern Africans, it proves nothing. It also proves nothing about the population of the civilization at that time.

Are people from Central Africa also descendents of Western Europeans lol:

Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/abs/ejhg2009231a.html

Like I said. What you have posted proves absolutely NADA...

[3l3m3ntal]

Since when has Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III been called Nubian? Seems from my searches this "Nubian" theory pops up on alot of Afrocentrists / black supremacist sites. As far as you encounters with white supremacists sites, that is going to happen likewise me with those Afrocentrist sites / blogs ect. I try to use Egyptian, Mediterranean, archeaological, anthropological and academic sources exclusively. Let me give you a clue, those sculptures of Queen Tiye and Amenhotep III are wooden. Did you know that?

Well, since Tiye fathers is said to have been Nubian, makes sense his daughter would be as well...

The bulk of scholarly opinion states Tiye was the daughter of two Nubian commoners, Yuya and Thuya, both of whom were Amun priests.

What scholars? Sources? And not one of your garden variety moderate to extreme Afrocentrist yokels either!

And the auburn hair, a common trick used to cover greying during that time.

That wood certainly looks to have a finish, doubt it is from aging. The wood would turn black, not brown if it were a result of oxidization.

Of course, not all wood darkens with age, some actually lighten. But if you are claiming the wood has darkened from oxidization, it would not turn brown. Also, are you suggesting that wood oxidizes evenly? The colors on that statue look pretty intentional, no signs of color variation, the whole statue seems to be one intentional color to me.

You are really reaching like a typical Afrocentrists, well let me clue you in, the Bust of Queen Tiye depicted wearing an ornamented wig or headdress (not an afro) is over 3300 years old (approximately 1360 BCE, 18th Dynasty) and made of yew wood.

Modern yew wood portrait


Early 20th century Japanese Ainu standing sculptures


And another detail you overlook, please observe the caucasoidal orthognathicism (not negroid prognathicism), triangular nose (not circular like negroid), and angular eyesockets. Those mummies are caucasoid.

[3l3m3ntal]

Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n7/abs/ejhg2009231a.html

Like I said. What you have posted proves absolutely NADA...

All that is saying is R1b is prodominately European and Asian but they found evidence that a paragroup of chromosomes designated R-P25* (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried a back migration (back into Africa migration) from Asia in the prehistoric times approximately 9200-5600 kya during the early mid Holocene peroid. Basically there was an invasion or migration of R1b DNA back into Africa 9200-5600 years ago during early mid Holocene period.

"The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes."

An this view is empirically supported,

"The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600 kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view."

This new African clade is R1b1a R-V88. UNOFFICIALLY KING TUT IS R1b1b (<--- please note the "b"), compared to this newly discovered African clade R1b1a (<--- please note the "a") R-V88.

You don't even know what you posted much less put forth logical argument, none of this supports your view but only strengthens mine.

[3l3m3ntal]

R1b1a R-V88 --- exclusiely Negroid?

[mikestone]

20th century wood carvings.. Is that what you are using to compare to a wood carving over 3000 years old lol.. And the statement about the wood was not in reference to Tiye, but the sculpture of Amenhotep III. Where did I contend Tiye had an Afro

You never seem to really refute what I post, qualifying it as Afrocentric is not a rebuttal. You continue to gloss over facts you cannot refute, which is telling. It shows that you CAN'T refute it, and that you would rather to continue juggling, bouncing around posting random responses to selective portions of my responses.

Your You Tube DNA video proves NOTHING. Those wood sculptures prove NOTHING. The sculpture of the woodsman or who ever looks like it would when it was created lol.. It shows no real signs of sever oxidization like a wood sculpture 3000 plus years old would show. Not to mention features, which clearly show a non-Caucasian man. The woodsman you posted is clearly a white male. The sculpture I posted is clearly not a white man.

And to your contentiion of Queen Tiye, who said it was an Afro? Who exactly are you responding to in these responses of yours? I simply stated that the auburn die used in her hair was common in covering grey hairs. You just make up arguments, not even really responding to what is being said. Which means 1) you are deflecting 2) you cant answer the facts presented.

And am I to guess you are confusing Anu people with Ainu in posting those statues?

Can you produce a legitimate website that states King Tut is of Western Euro ancestry? Cause I cant find any at all whatsoever. The only sites I find are 1) conservative 2) supremecists.

[mikestone]

You don't even know what you posted much less put forth logical argument, none of this supports your view but only strengthens mine.

10% of North African males possess the same Y chromosome as the one alleged in King Tuts results.

Once again, you are WRONG. It supports my position, as it shows a migration of blacks from Europe back into Africa. Which more then explains why some Africans are linked to European ancestry. You must believe people were restricted to particular regions based on ethnicity, but the fact is these times and those prior were FAR more nomadic when it comes to the migration of people.

Besides, as stated numerous times, that King Tut video and online King Tut conspiracy found on Stormfront and like sites is not a conclusive way to determine ETHNICITY.... It is not stated anywhere by anyone of credibility that the DNA testing done on King Tut, or any DNA test can accurately determine race. When are you going to get that through your head? It is not 1) a metric for determining the population in Egypt at the time of King Tut 2) it does not identify race or ethnicity.

[3l3m3ntal]

:bored:

20th century wood carvings.. Is that what you are using to compare to a wood carving over 3000 years old lol.. And the statement about the wood was not in reference to Tiye, but the sculpture of Amenhotep III. Where did I contend Tiye had an Afro

You never seem to really refute what I post, qualifying it as Afrocentric is not a rebuttal. You continue to gloss over facts you cannot refute, which is telling. It shows that you CAN'T refute it, and that you would rather to continue juggling, bouncing around posting random responses to selective portions of my responses.

Your You Tube DNA video proves NOTHING. Those wood sculptures prove NOTHING. The sculpture of the woodsman or who ever looks like it would when it was created lol.. It shows no real signs of sever oxidization like a wood sculpture 3000 plus years old would show. Not to mention features, which clearly show a non-Caucasian man. The woodsman you posted is clearly a white male. The sculpture I posted is clearly not a white man.

And to your contentiion of Queen Tiye, who said it was an Afro? Who exactly are you responding to in these responses of yours? I simply stated that the auburn die used in her hair was common in covering grey hairs. You just make up arguments, not even really responding to what is being said. Which means 1) you are deflecting 2) you cant answer the facts presented.

And am I to guess you are confusing Anu people with Ainu in posting those statues?

Can you produce a legitimate website that states King Tut is of Western Euro ancestry? Cause I cant find any at all whatsoever. The only sites I find are 1) conservative 2) supremecists.

Because those three yew wood sculptures represent caucasoids... the Ainu are an indigenious caucasoid population in Japan. I gave you three more recent representatives of caucasoid sculptures carved out of yew wood. Because you ignorantly believe color of wood is representative of color of skin, and 3300 year old wood at that. Not to mention Tiye bust lacks negroid features. LOL!

[3l3m3ntal]

You don't even know what you posted much less put forth logical argument, none of this supports your view but only strengthens mine.

10% of North African males possess the same Y chromosome as the one alleged in King Tuts results.

Once again, you are WRONG. It supports my position, as it shows a migration of blacks from Europe back into Africa. Which more then explains why some Africans are linked to European ancestry. You must believe people were restricted to particular regions based on ethnicity, but the fact is these times and those prior were FAR more nomadic when it comes to the migration of people.

No, it was a migration from Asian back into African, prehistoric "cave men" from Asian migrated back into Africa 9200-5600 years old. Left their DNA markers with the local population while they either continued to migrate or were assimiliated and absorbed into negroids themselves. Likely the latter.

R1b1a R-V88 is a newly discovered clade.

[3l3m3ntal]

Haplogroup R are was exclusively Caucasoid and Mongoloid.

Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%

[mikestone]

Do you ever stop lying lol... You would link every race on the planet as originally white if you could:

Full-blooded Ainu are lighter skinned than their Japanese neighbors and have more body hair.[22] Many early investigators proposed a Caucasian ancestry,[23] although recent DNA tests have not shown any genetic similarity with modern caucasian Europeans.

Genetic testing of the Ainu people has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D2.[24] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago including Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#Origins

And what is this about "features?" Only a fool would not know that the black race is the most diverse in the world. Narrow noses and stereotypical "Negro" features seem to be your measure in analyzing these works.

And sorry, Tiye's features do not appear to be Caucasian to me at all.. Not one iota. And your example of 150 year old wood proves nothing. To me, they look the same color as they were when they were made, having a before and after would have been a bit more effective as both examples look like the normal shade of wood (seeing there are hundreds of different kinds, shades, colors. The wooden statue of Amenhotep III seems to be intentionally brown in color, same as the bust of Tiye.

In addition, using the skin tones in ancient Egyptian art is not an accurate way to determine their race, seeing they used different colors to represent gender and rank in society. Often black Nubians were embellished a bit as being very Negroid in comparison to blacks that lived in Egypt.

But this will go nowhere, I will let science decide. Real science, not silly online foolery where people find what they want to believe and cite it as fact.

For someone who believes you are intelligent, it surprises me you continue to use mtDNA testing as a measure of ethnicity and race as it has been stated that it is not. But to each their own.

[3l3m3ntal]

Do you ever stop lying lol... You would link every race on the planet as originally white if you could:

Full-blooded Ainu are lighter skinned than their Japanese neighbors and have more body hair.[22] Many early investigators proposed a Caucasian ancestry,[23] although recent DNA tests have not shown any genetic similarity with modern caucasian Europeans.

Genetic testing of the Ainu people has shown them to belong mainly to Y-haplogroup D2.[24] Y-DNA haplogroup D2 is found frequently throughout the Japanese Archipelago including Okinawa. The only places outside of Japan in which Y-haplogroup D is common are Tibet and the Andaman Islands in the Indian Ocean.[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ainu_people#Origins

And what is this about "features?" Only a fool would not know that the black race is the most diverse in the world. Narrow noses and stereotypical "Negro" features seem to be your measure in analyzing these works.

And sorry, Tiye's features do not appear to be Caucasian to me at all.. Not one iota. And your example of 150 year old wood proves nothing. To me, they look the same color as they were when they were made, having a before and after would have been a bit more effective as both examples look like the normal shade of wood (seeing there are hundreds of different kinds, shades, colors. The wooden statue of Amenhotep III seems to be intentionally brown in color, same as the bust of Tiye.

In addition, using the skin tones in ancient Egyptian art is not an accurate way to determine their race, seeing they used different colors to represent gender and rank in society. Often black Nubians were embellished a bit as being very Negroid in comparison to blacks that lived in Egypt.

But this will go nowhere, I will let science decide. Real science, not silly online foolery where people find what they want to believe and cite it as fact.

For someone who believes you are intelligent, it surprises me you continue to use mtDNA testing as a measure of ethnicity and race as it has been stated that it is not. But to each their own.

Such hypocrisy and typical Afrocentric blanket statements. Well, the East Africans such as Somalis and Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian.

Do these look negroid to you?



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/QueenTiyFuneraryMask-AltesMuseum-Berlin.png








NO! NEITHER DO THEIR MUMMIES!

[3l3m3ntal]

One didn't work...

[3l3m3ntal]

Here is another Queen Tiye
[img]http://origin.viajeaqui.abril.com.br/national-geographic/imagens/galeria-de-fotos/2010/set/edicao-126-tutankhamon-tutankamon-estudo-dna-mumia-farao-estatua-avo-tiye.jpg
[/img]

I need to photoshop that Queen Tiye, make it alabaster white or olive with perhaps cherry red lipstick in order to knock the black-on-the-brain Afrocentrists

[3l3m3ntal]

Here is another Queen Tiye



I need to photoshop that Queen Tiye, make it alabaster white or olive with perhaps cherry red lipstick in order to knock the black-on-the-brain Afrocentrists

[3l3m3ntal]

A cross between Audrey Hepburn and Jane Greer???

[mikestone]

A cross between Audrey Hepburn and Jane Greer???

Looks closer to Erykah Badu to me lol..

Those photos have zero resemblance.

Well, the East Africans such as Somalis and Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian.

Which only substantiates even further that mtDNA testing cannot tell ethnicity or race, only geography.



Does that straightness of hair look familiar to you lol..

Like I said, you are stuck in this mentality of stereotypical "Negroid" features in your determination of what is "black" and what is "white." Before you cited nasal passages and cranial structure to being able to determine race. But when it was used against you, you called it pseudo science. Now you are doing an armchair cranial analysis of the bust of Tiye in comparison to Audrey Hepburn. Thats pretty funny really.

But I digress. The belief of Ethiopians being black skinned Caucasians has long again been refuted.

Funny how the relics you posted bare absolutely no resemblance to Greek or Roman sculptures feature wise.



And what about her earrings? Those are a symbol of Nubian royalty.

Nubian King:

bronze sculpture of a Nubian king wearing the Nubian-style cap crown. It dates from a time when Nubia dominated Egypt as the self-proclaimed protectors of Amun. The sculpture includes symbols of kingship such as the necklace with ram heads, the symbol of Amun, and the use of two uraeus snakes on the cap crown, perhaps symbolizing the fact that this king ruled Egypt and Nubia. The panther head on the belt refers to the king’s role as a priest. This Nubian king also wears a kilt similar to those worn by Egyptian pharaohs.

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/TRC/NUBIA/royalty.html

The two cobras was original to Nubian royalty, as you can see on the head pieces of these Nubian kings.

Shabaka lavished Thebes and the Temple of Luxor with building projects. At Karnak he erected a pink granite statue depicting himself wearing the Kushite crown of the double uraeus—the two cobras signifying his legitimacy as Lord of the Two Lands. Through architecture as well as military might, Shabaka signaled to Egypt that the Nubians were here to stay.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text/5

On other ancient reliefs, Nefertiti appears with a hair arrangement referred to as a 'tapered Nubian wig'. This consists of a number of layers of locks and plaits piled on top of each other, originally worn only by the men of the royal army. The queen's brow is frequently adorned by the double uraeus serpent, the emblem of her sovereignty over the two lands - Upper and Lower Egypt.

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/egypt/pharoahs/nefertiti/beauty/index.shtml

[SOUTH EAST SLIM]

LMFAO No, Egyptians arent & never were white. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a delusional idiot.

To make a long story short,Egyptians back in the old days were BLACK,but if you didn't know you know now Arabs been fuckin wit Africans heavy for centuries (indentured servants/slaves etc), & eventually invaded & mixed in with the general population to the point where African blood is diluted. Which is why theres even a pure but small African pop ' there now .


People , mostly white ,don't wanna accept that & keep up the charade of white superiority .

[3l3m3ntal]

Well, the East Africans such as Somalis and Ethiopians are 40% Eurasian.

Which only substantiates even further that mtDNA testing cannot tell ethnicity or race, only geography.

This doesn't even warrant an answer, as mtDNA is only passed on maternally.

Like I said, you are stuck in this mentality of stereotypical "Negroid" features in your determination of what is "black" and what is "white." Before you cited nasal passages and cranial structure to being able to determine race. But when it was used against you, you called it pseudo science. Now you are doing an armchair cranial analysis of the bust of Tiye in comparison to Audrey Hepburn. Thats pretty funny really.

But I digress. The belief of Ethiopians being black skinned Caucasians has long again been refuted.

It is not pseudo science it is forensic and anthropological science.

Funny how the relics you posted bare absolutely no resemblance to Greek or Roman sculptures feature wise.

Because they're NOT Greek or Roman sculptures they're Egyptian.

And what about her earrings? Those are a symbol of Nubian royalty.

Nubian King:

mikestone's piece of history, you just made that up!

bronze sculpture of a Nubian king wearing the Nubian-style cap crown. It dates from a time when Nubia dominated Egypt as the self-proclaimed protectors of Amun. The sculpture includes symbols of kingship such as the necklace with ram heads, the symbol of Amun, and the use of two uraeus snakes on the cap crown, perhaps symbolizing the fact that this king ruled Egypt and Nubia. The panther head on the belt refers to the king’s role as a priest. This Nubian king also wears a kilt similar to those worn by Egyptian pharaohs.

25th Dynasty Nubian Pharaohs 721-656 BCE, Piye, Shabaka, Shabataka, Taharqa, and very briefly Tanutamun.

http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/ED/TRC/NUBIA/royalty.html

The two cobras was original to Nubian royalty, as you can see on the head pieces of these Nubian kings.

25th Dynasty Nubian Pharaohs 721-656 BCE, Piye, Shabaka, Shabataka, Taharqa, and very briefly Tanutamun.

Shabaka lavished Thebes and the Temple of Luxor with building projects. At Karnak he erected a pink granite statue depicting himself wearing the Kushite crown of the double uraeus—the two cobras signifying his legitimacy as Lord of the Two Lands. Through architecture as well as military might, Shabaka signaled to Egypt that the Nubians were here to stay.

25th Dynasty Nubian Pharaohs 721-656 BCE, Piye, Shabaka, Shabataka, Taharqa, and very briefly Tanutamun.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/02/black-pharaohs/robert-draper-text/5

On other ancient reliefs, Nefertiti appears with a hair arrangement referred to as a 'tapered Nubian wig'. This consists of a number of layers of locks and plaits piled on top of each other, originally worn only by the men of the royal army. The queen's brow is frequently adorned by the double uraeus serpent, the emblem of her sovereignty over the two lands - Upper and Lower Egypt.

Yeah, because it was an Egyptians did it first not the other way around. You got it backwards.

Nefertiti is 18th Dynasty, 1348-1298 BCE.

25th Dynasty Nubian Pharaohs 721-656 BCE, Piye, Shabaka, Shabataka, Taharqa, and very briefly Tanutamun.

http://www.yourdiscovery.com/egypt/pharoahs/nefertiti/beauty/index.shtml

[3l3m3ntal]

LMFAO No, Egyptians arent & never were white. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a delusional idiot.

To make a long story short,Egyptians back in the old days were BLACK,but if you didn't know you know now Arabs been fuckin wit Africans heavy for centuries (indentured servants/slaves etc), & eventually invaded & mixed in with the general population to the point where African blood is diluted. Which is why theres even a pure but small African pop ' there now .


People , mostly white ,don't wanna accept that & keep up the charade of white superiority .

And the world is still flat!

[SOUTH EAST SLIM]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

[3l3m3ntal]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

[BlackMagicDiamond]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

And Africa is still not in Europe so hop off

[3l3m3ntal]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

And Africa is still not in Europe so hop off

Go bury that childish 2nd grade ignorance elsewhere.

[BlackMagicDiamond]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

And Africa is still not in Europe so hop off

Go bury that childish 2nd grade ignorance elsewhere.

What childish 2nd grade ignorance? Have you looked at a map lately? Egypt is not in Europe sir. Far from it. The only reason you claim the Arabs as White is so you claim their civilizations to make it seem like yall did it. Quit with the games we see right through you

[3l3m3ntal]

IGNORANT DUMBASS!

[getoutcheesetoast]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

[BlackMagicDiamond]

IGNORANT DUMBASS!

THAT SAYS THE METTRIAN YOU STUPID IGNORMAOUS TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT REGIONS TAKE YOUR WHITE SUPERMIST BULLSHIT SOMEWHERE ELSE AND OFF THIS FORUM AND GO BACK TO STORMFRONT AND HURRY UP CAUSE YOU HAVE AN ONLINE NEO NAZI MEETING IN A FEW MINTUES

[3l3m3ntal]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

[3l3m3ntal]

IGNORANT DUMBASS!

THAT SAYS THE METTRIAN YOU STUPID IGNORMAOUS TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT REGIONS TAKE YOUR WHITE SUPERMIST BULLSHIT SOMEWHERE ELSE AND OFF THIS FORUM AND GO BACK TO STORMFRONT AND HURRY UP CAUSE YOU HAVE AN ONLINE NEO NAZI MEETING IN A FEW MINTUES

YOUR LACK OF COMMON HISTORY AND INABILITY TO GRASP WHAT I AM TELLING YOU IS APPALLING.

[mikestone]

This doesn't even warrant an answer, as mtDNA is only passed on maternally.

Figure you would say that seeing, you are once again, wrong:

Can DNA Tell What "Race" You Are?

Summarizing mtDNA, Y, and Autosomal mapping
Molecular anthropologists are often asked if DNA markers can tell what "race" you are. The short answer is "no." Mitochondrial DNA and Y haplogroups can tell from which continent your matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors came. And if you live in the Americas, autosomal mapping can tell what fraction of your ancestors came from Africa, what fraction came from Europe, and what fraction were Native Americans. But no DNA can tell your "race."

Y chromsome markers (Y haplogroups) are more recent but are also well understood. Only males carry them. They descend through the paternal line, passing from father to son. It reminds you of the way surnames work in the Western world, so Y haplogroups are often used by genealogists pursuing surname ancestry. The map shows prehistoric migrations of fathers who, over the past tens of thousands of years, carried the different Y markers around the globe. If your Y is “R1b” then your ancestors arrived in Europe before the ice ages. If your Y is “Q,” then you either descend from Native Americans or from their ancestors who remained in Asia. If your Y is ExE3b, then you descend from west Africans.

Why does this not tell your “race”? Again, it is because only one man, out of your thousand ancestors from 1800, carried your Y haplogroup. The other 999 might have had totally different ancestry. For example, my own Y is R1* (from Cameroon in west Africa). And yet, as already mentioned, I have a northern European appearance and no credible family tradition of sub-Saharan ancestry. Hence, the “race” that most people see in me matches neither my mtDNA nor my Y.

http://knol.google.com/k/can-dna-tell-what-race-you-are#

You say that R1b1b marker came about after the Ice Age in Europe, Ice age was 20,000 years ago, Africans and East Asians were the first settlers of Europe, 30,000 years ago, pre-Ice Age.

The first settlers of Europe Pre-Ice Age:



It would be like you determining my ethnicity based on my GPS readings. Just cause at 830 pm, 1/1/11, I was in China Town, dont make me Chinese. Thats exactly what this test determines, ancient migration, where a single ancestor in your parents DNA migrated from. And when going back that far in time to determine ancestry, you essentially leave out thousands, millions of other ancestors.

You have 16 sets of great, great grandparents, through this testing you would exclude 14 of then, 7 on each side (mother/father). Imagine how many you exclude going back 10,000 years.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

But you continue to present a test that determines geographical background as one that identifies race. Telling that lie is about the only leg you have to stand on. I can't prove you any more incorrect then I have already.

[SOUTH EAST SLIM]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

Citing sources my boy? Mind you most your sources are biased, from other delusional racists such as yourself Beside I don't feel like even going there cuz it's not even that serious lls.

And what makes you think I don't know the diversity of Africa? Africa is the most diverse continent on earth. But wait Mr Know it all aka Mr Swallow it all I forgot you know everything about everything. Besides, who the hell is you? Oh yeah another disgruntled white racist who only has internet courage to spread his racist lies.



Like I said to make a long STORY SHORT, Egyptians are not white and never were, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that. Arabs are caucasian I know this, just not of nordic white stock . But in no way shape or form Egyptians are white and if you wanna keep this charade up then go ahead because no one on this site beleives you

[3l3m3ntal]

This doesn't even warrant an answer, as mtDNA is only passed on maternally.

Figure you would say that seeing, you are once again, wrong:

Can DNA Tell What "Race" You Are?

Summarizing mtDNA, Y, and Autosomal mapping
Molecular anthropologists are often asked if DNA markers can tell what "race" you are. The short answer is "no." Mitochondrial DNA and Y haplogroups can tell from which continent your matrilineal and patrilineal ancestors came. And if you live in the Americas, autosomal mapping can tell what fraction of your ancestors came from Africa, what fraction came from Europe, and what fraction were Native Americans. But no DNA can tell your "race."

Y chromsome markers (Y haplogroups) are more recent but are also well understood. Only males carry them. They descend through the paternal line, passing from father to son. It reminds you of the way surnames work in the Western world, so Y haplogroups are often used by genealogists pursuing surname ancestry. The map shows prehistoric migrations of fathers who, over the past tens of thousands of years, carried the different Y markers around the globe. If your Y is “R1b” then your ancestors arrived in Europe before the ice ages. If your Y is “Q,” then you either descend from Native Americans or from their ancestors who remained in Asia. If your Y is ExE3b, then you descend from west Africans.

Why does this not tell your “race”? Again, it is because only one man, out of your thousand ancestors from 1800, carried your Y haplogroup. The other 999 might have had totally different ancestry. For example, my own Y is R1* (from Cameroon in west Africa). And yet, as already mentioned, I have a northern European appearance and no credible family tradition of sub-Saharan ancestry. Hence, the “race” that most people see in me matches neither my mtDNA nor my Y.

http://knol.google.com/k/can-dna-tell-what-race-you-are#

You say that R1b1b marker came about after the Ice Age in Europe, Ice age was 20,000 years ago, Africans and East Asians were the first settlers of Europe, 30,000 years ago, pre-Ice Age.

The first settlers of Europe Pre-Ice Age:



It would be like you determining my ethnicity based on my GPS readings. Just cause at 830 pm, 1/1/11, I was in China Town, dont make me Chinese. Thats exactly what this test determines, ancient migration, where a single ancestor in your parents DNA migrated from. And when going back that far in time to determine ancestry, you essentially leave out thousands, millions of other ancestors.

You have 16 sets of great, great grandparents, through this testing you would exclude 14 of then, 7 on each side (mother/father). Imagine how many you exclude going back 10,000 years.

DNA studies do not indicate that separate classifiable subspecies (races) exist within modern humans. While different genes for physical traits such as skin and hair color can be identified between individuals, no consistent patterns of genes across the human genome exist to distinguish one race from another. There also is no genetic basis for divisions of human ethnicity.

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml#7

But you continue to present a test that determines geographical background as one that identifies race. Telling that lie is about the only leg you have to stand on. I can't prove you any more incorrect then I have already.

I shrugged you off and permitting you to further expose yourself. You're cutting and pasting like a mad idiot without any comprehesion of what you are discussing. All that garbage you just cut and pasted above is moot point.

.... a la ...

[3l3m3ntal]

Right & everyone is supposed to beleive that Egyptians were white

And Elvis is my uncle .

You don't even cite any sources, you speak from an unlearned tongue. You don't even know the geography of Africa and much less know the diversity that lives there. But honestly, I don't feign to possess perfect knowledge of Africa either. But know enough (with academic supported views) North Africa is berbers (caucasoids).

Algeria - Arab-Berber 99%, European less than 1%

Egypt - Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1%

Libya - Berber and Arab 97%, Greeks, Maltese, Italians, Egyptians, Pakistanis, Turks, Indians, Tunisians

Morocco - Arab-Berber 99.1%, Jewish 0.2%, other 0.7%

Tunisia - Arab-Berber 98%, European 1%, Jewish and other 1%

Western Sahara - Arab, Berber

contrary to say ... Sudan (classically Kush, Ta'Seti, Nubia, Meroe) - black 52%, Arab 39%, Beja 6%, foreigners 2%, other 1%

Here is a general map of African kingdoms and empires most of them anyways, of which a greater percentage of them rose and fell during the Middle Ages (Medievel Times). None of them are any where near North Africa and alot of them were slaver kingdoms especially in Western Africa.

Citing sources my boy? Mind you most your sources are biased, from other delusional racists such as yourself Beside I don't feel like even going there cuz it's not even that serious lls.

And what makes you think I don't know the diversity of Africa? Africa is the most diverse continent on earth. But wait Mr Know it all aka Mr Swallow it all I forgot you know everything about everything. Besides, who the hell is you? Oh yeah another disgruntled white racist who only has internet courage to spread his racist lies.



Like I said to make a long STORY SHORT, Egyptians are not white and never were, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that. Arabs are caucasian I know this, just not of nordic white stock . But in no way shape or form Egyptians are white and if you wanna keep this charade up then go ahead because no one on this site beleives you

Ancient Egyptians are caucasoid. They weren't negroid. You are the one lost in delusion and fantasy. And my sources aren't bias they are universally taught, it is what is in the history books.

[3l3m3ntal]

mikestone, those blogs are playing multi-culti semantics with Y-DNA and mtDNA.

[mikestone]

I shrugged you off and permitting you to further expose yourself. You're cutting and pasting like a mad idiot without any comprehesion of what you are discussing. All that garbage you just cut and pasted above is moot point.

.... a la ...

Thats what I thought. You have no way to prove the testing proves anything. Just another nuh-uh answer.

[3l3m3ntal]

I shrugged you off and permitting you to further expose yourself. You're cutting and pasting like a mad idiot without any comprehesion of what you are discussing. All that garbage you just cut and pasted above is moot point.

.... a la ...

Thats what I thought. You have no way to prove the testing proves anything. Just another nuh-uh answer.

Okay, you've successfully baited me. Haplogroups are deep ancestry 1000s-10000s of years ago (note the alternative wording of common ancestor which to deep ancestry), identifying populations and migrations by SNP (single nucleotide polymorphisms). Haplogroups represent major branches and they rarely mutate. In other words, Haplogroups are too old and too longstanding to blink off the map but it can become a new clade such as ... ahem ... R1b1c V88 that is highest density in northern Cameroon in very high frequency whileas it is extremely rare everywhere else in the world.

And additionally, Y-DNA is passed between paternal to son, but mtDNA is passed to child but only carried on by daughters.

But here's the clincher, Y-DNA and mtDNA never recombines, there's no intermixture of the parent's genetic material. So a generation or few of racial admixture isn't going to be identified by this Y-DNA and mtDNA testing but rather the older and/or oldest mixing of genes prevails.

[3l3m3ntal]

Here is an analogy I personally thought of, not sure if an geneticist would apply but it makes sense to me, imagine a city block or two or several with inequal amounts of representatives from the various (or even all races) walking these streets around randomly and randomly passing a brown paper lunchbag between themselves everytime one comes into contact with another. That brown paper bag represents DNA.

[3l3m3ntal]

Don't quote me on this because I am no geneticist but Haplogroups I liken to "30 lane interstate highway (not sure if I am over-exaggerating or an underestimating with that statement) -- a blast from the distant past -- and the Haplogroup that contributes the least percentage of DNA into an individual's ancestry loses, becomes a statistical percentage".

[Evil Eye VELL]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

only now..cause it suits the cause of stealing history...but in the 60's and prior if they were in America they'd be at the back of the bus

[Evil Eye VELL]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

PRIME EXAMPLE SHIT CHANGES TO SUIT THEIR PURPOSE..."OH THERE NOT THAT KINDA WHITE..THEY ARE A DIF TYPE OF WHITE" NIGGA IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE?....say it with me EUROPEANS ARE FROM E-U-R-O-P-E...SO THEY ARE EUROPEANS NOT AFRICAN...

[freddiefourfingers]

I don't know Mr. Gates' ancestry. So I can't say.

-google it.

[Evil Eye VELL]

DNA tests offer clues to suspect's race
By Richard Willing, USA TODAY
Police seeking the killer of an unidentified girl who was found decapitated in Kansas City, Mo., four years ago kept a secret from the public.

The child, dubbed "Precious Doe" by local residents, appeared to be black. But new DNA tests that can determine a person's heritage indicated she was of mixed ancestry — about 40% white. That meant she almost certainly had a white grandparent.

This year, a tip led police to an Oklahoma woman who had not reported her young daughter's disappearance. When the woman was found to have both a black and a white parent, police moved in. Further DNA tests determined that the woman, Michelle Johnson, was the girl's mother. Johnson and her husband, Harrell Johnson, the victim's stepfather, have been charged in the slaying.

Precious Doe was identified as 3-year-old Erica Michelle Marie Green of Muskogee, Okla. During a trip to Kansas City, prosecutors allege, her stepfather kicked her to death because she wouldn't go to bed on time.

In the past 12 years, police across the USA have identified thousands of suspects by testing DNA profiles in blood, sweat, semen or skin tissue left at crime scenes, and then comparing them to the profiles of known offenders on file in government databases. But as the Kansas City case showed, advances in DNA testing are allowing investigators to learn more about suspects whose profiles are not in the databases. Tests that can identify a suspect's ancestry are being used not to identify the suspect by name, but rather to give police an idea of what he or she looks like.

DNA ancestry testing "made a huge difference" in the Precious Doe case by helping investigators sort through reports about possible suspects, says Dave Bernard, a Kansas City police detective. "It allowed us to prioritize our tips, to give special attention to tips about mixed-race children, for instance. It was invaluable."

How the test works

DNA is a cellular acid that carries a person's unique genetic code. The company that invented the ancestry test, DNAPrint Genomics of Sarasota, Fla., says that by examining tiny genetic markers on the DNA molecule that tend to be similar in people of certain population groups, it can tell whether a suspect's heritage is European, Sub-Saharan African, Southeast Asian, Native American or a mix of those.

The test works, the company says, because population groups developed different DNA characteristics after splitting off from common African ancestors more than 60,000 years ago.

In 2003, police in Louisiana used ancestry testing to help find the suspect in seven rape/murders. Since then, police in Missouri, Virginia, Colorado, California and the United Kingdom also have used such tests to develop leads in more than 80 other homicide, rape and missing-persons cases, according to DNAPrint Genomics and USA TODAY research.

Using the same genetic principles, DNAPrint Genomics is developing tests aimed at determining a suspect's eye color from a DNA sample. In the United Kingdom, meanwhile, the government's Forensic Science Service has begun examining DNA samples for indications of hair color.

DNAPrint Genomics also sells the test to people who want to trace their roots. The test, which costs $219, has been especially popular among those seeking to determine whether they are descended from Native Americans, lab director Matt Thomas says. DNAPrint Genomics charges police departments $1,000 for each ancestry test, because testing crime scene evidence for DNA can be particularly difficult.

Bernard and many other police detectives hail the ancestry tests as a breakthrough in crime-fighting. But medical ethicists, defense lawyers and even some police officials are troubled by the push to use DNA tests to identify suspects by what amounts to their race.

Some, such as Terry Melton, president of Mitotyping Technologies of State College, Pa., say the reliability of ancestry testing remains unproved.

William Shields, a biology professor and genetics specialist at State University of New York's College of Environmental Science and Forestry in Syracuse, says that even if the tests are correct, a person's ancestry often is a poor predictor of what he will look like. Human beings, Shields adds, are too scientifically similar to one another to be distinguished by a "layman's term" such as race.

Some defense lawyers say they fear that using ancestry testing to determine suspects' heritage could lead to genetic racial profiling, or promote the idea that certain races are more inclined than others to commit crimes.

"How far are we from having (ancestry tests) used to justify taking DNA from any black man on a street corner, because we think a Sub-Saharan African committed the crime?" asks Ingrid Gill, a Chicago lawyer who has lectured on ancestry testing at the American Academy of Forensic Sciences.

George Rhoden, a detective with London's Metropolitan Police and president of the force's Black Police Association, also is a skeptic. He says that in a society in which marriages between people of different ethnic backgrounds are increasingly common, racial designations often are "very broad" and "don't do us coppers much good."

Rhoden points out that suspects with similar genetic ancestry can look significantly different from one another. A person whose profile is 75% Sub-Saharan African, for example, may have skin color that is nearly identical to someone whose profile is 35% Sub-Saharan African.

"As a detective, I don't care where (a suspect's) grandfather came from," Rhoden says. "I want to know what he looks like."

Mark Shriver, an anthropological geneticist at Penn State University and a consultant to DNAPrint Genomics, acknowledges that "there's a huge sensitivity about race in our society. We are making a strong attempt to be sensitive to the issue."

But "that doesn't take away the reality that people often describe each other in terms of race. We're saying: Let DNA be the witness."

Beyond standard DNA tests

Conventional DNA analysis compares 13 relatively large areas on the molecule where the DNA sequence is known to vary greatly among individuals. If two DNA samples match at all 13 positions, statistics maintained by the FBI say it's highly likely they came from the same person.

Ancestry tests, by contrast, examine 176 mutations in which the DNA varies at only one position. Some of the mutations, called single nucleotide polymorphisms (or SNPs), have been found to occur only in certain ancestral groups. Others tend to cluster in one group more than others because of centuries of geographic separation and inter-marriage. Together, Thomas says, SNPs are "highly informative of ancestry."

In 2003, DNAPrint Genomics began to license its test to police agencies. The scientists realized, Thomas says, that knowing a suspect's race or ancestral background "may not be great for, 'Who do we arrest?' " but could help police determine, "Who do we question?"

The company's test was first used in a criminal investigation in the Baton Rouge area, where a series of at least seven rape/murders had authorities stumped. Witnesses had reported seeing a white man in a white truck near the scene of two of the killings. Police had taken DNA samples from more than 1,200 white men in the area and had not found a match to samples from the crimes.

Then the DNAPrint Genomics ancestry test found that the unknown attacker was mostly of Sub-Saharan African ancestry with a smattering of Native American.

That led authorities to focus on Derrick Todd Lee, a black man with convictions for burglary and stalking. Additional testing matched Lee's DNA to samples taken from victims. He has been convicted in two of the slayings.

In 2004, police in Charlottesville, Va., used ancestry testing to confirm the race of a suspect in six unsolved rapes that began in 1997. Police had been criticized for seeking DNA samples from local black men based on victims' descriptions of the assailant. The testing indicated that he indeed was of Sub-Saharan African descent.

Ancestry testing also has been used on a female skeleton that was found in the snow near Mammoth Lake, Calif., in May 2003. The slain woman initially was misidentified as southeast Asian, based on witnesses' descriptions of a woman seen in the area. DNAPrint Genomics found she actually was a Native American, a finding confirmed by analyses of her diet and bone composition and further DNA tests.

The ancestry test "turned around the whole investigation," says Paul Dostie, the police detective investigating the case. "We're still looking for the killer, but we know a lot more now."

New technology 'scares me'

For all the promise of ancestry testing, there are increasing concerns about how police will use such information.

Defense lawyer Bruce Unangst, who defended Lee in his second murder trial, says the new technology "scares me. It's supposed to be new and foolproof, but that's traditionally what they say about all new" crime-fighting innovations. "By the time we find out there are serious questions ... a whole bunch of innocent people have had their DNA searched."

Last year, London police sought DNA samples from officers of Afro-Caribbean backgrounds to compare them with evidence from nine unsolved rapes. The suspect's accent and the neighborhood in which he operated suggested to police that he was a black man with Caribbean roots.

Working with DNAPrint Genomics, London police hoped to develop a database of DNA characteristics that are particular to Afro-Caribbeans to confirm their suspicions and to help them find suspects in other cases.

Rhoden, as head of the Black Police Association, urged members not to cooperate. "In our view, this promoted racial stereotyping while adding little to the investigation."

Melton, the private lab president from State College, Pa., says inferring a suspect's appearance by examining only 176 ancestry markers is "more than (labs) ought to be doing."

Because scientists have identified thousands of SNPs, Melton says, many more should be tested.

DNAPrint Genomics reviewed about 25,000 DNA markers before choosing the 176 that were "most informative of ancestry," Thomas says. The company now has a test that can tell whether a European's DNA came from a northern or southern European, he says.

For detectives who use its service, the company provides photographs of people whose ancestral profile matches that of the detectives' suspect.

"What does a Northern European, Native American and Southeast Asian mixture look like? That's a fair question," Thomas says. "We're told the photographs are extremely helpful."

The company's research is continuing. After Afro-Caribbean police in London refused to donate DNA samples, DNAPrint Genomics collected about 150 samples from police on Caribbean islands.

More samples are needed, Thomas says, but the DNA profiles collected so far suggest there are markers that distinguish Afro-Caribbean blacks from others in the Sub-Saharan group.

London police, Thomas says, were "on the right track" in their rape investigation.

Rhoden draws a different lesson from the episode. He notes that few of the Caribbean officers who gave DNA samples were willing to have their photographs added to the company's files.

"Even for these guys, who wished to be helpful, that was going too far," Rhoden says. "We should take notice of how nervous it makes such people before we endorse any kind of mass DNA taking from ordinary people."

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[BlackMagicDiamond]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

Excatly. They want to claim that it was the "Arab Slave Trade" but if the Arabs are White then their responisble for that too

[3l3m3ntal]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

PRIME EXAMPLE SHIT CHANGES TO SUIT THEIR PURPOSE..."OH THERE NOT THAT KINDA WHITE..THEY ARE A DIF TYPE OF WHITE" NIGGA IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE?....say it with me EUROPEANS ARE FROM E-U-R-O-P-E...SO THEY ARE EUROPEANS NOT AFRICAN...

Hey homie, will you please climb back down outta that tree...

Arabs have caucasoidal skulls ... their skulls have triangular nasal structures and towers (bridges), they have angular eyesockets, and they have orthognathic faces ... Arab skulls don't have prognathic faces of a negroid, they don't have the rounded eyesockets of a negroid, and nor the rounded nasal structure of a negroid. Neither do they classify under Australoid and Mongoloid. And their DNA falls under caucasian too, a large percentage under J1 group.

[NUAFRAKANRBG]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fFRCwTY_Cs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

[3l3m3ntal]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fFRCwTY_Cs&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]

More Afrocentric history revisionism ... yawn

[Evil Eye VELL]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

PRIME EXAMPLE SHIT CHANGES TO SUIT THEIR PURPOSE..."OH THERE NOT THAT KINDA WHITE..THEY ARE A DIF TYPE OF WHITE" NIGGA IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE?....say it with me EUROPEANS ARE FROM E-U-R-O-P-E...SO THEY ARE EUROPEANS NOT AFRICAN...

Hey homie, will you please climb back down outta that tree...

Arabs have caucasoidal skulls ... their skulls have triangular nasal structures and towers (bridges), they have angular eyesockets, and they have orthognathic faces ... Arab skulls don't have prognathic faces of a negroid, they don't have the rounded eyesockets of a negroid, and nor the rounded nasal structure of a negroid. Neither do they classify under Australoid and Mongoloid. And their DNA falls under caucasian too, a large percentage under J1 group.

HEY SLAV (SLAVE)..y don't u crawl back into ur cave and pick a side of the fence to stay on...THAT DNA SHIT ISN'T FOOL PROOF..neither are the MAN-MADE CLASSIFICATIONS put into place IN RECENT TIMES..

[3l3m3ntal]

if the arabs is white, then white people was guilty of the arabic slave trade

They're hamatic/semitic caucasoids not British/Irish/Scottish/German/Spanish/Italian white like I think a small group of peeps on this board I believe I think perceive I am insinuating. But Berbers can certainly pass as European.

PRIME EXAMPLE SHIT CHANGES TO SUIT THEIR PURPOSE..."OH THERE NOT THAT KINDA WHITE..THEY ARE A DIF TYPE OF WHITE" NIGGA IS THERE ANY OTHER TYPE?....say it with me EUROPEANS ARE FROM E-U-R-O-P-E...SO THEY ARE EUROPEANS NOT AFRICAN...

Hey homie, will you please climb back down outta that tree...

Arabs have caucasoidal skulls ... their skulls have triangular nasal structures and towers (bridges), they have angular eyesockets, and they have orthognathic faces ... Arab skulls don't have prognathic faces of a negroid, they don't have the rounded eyesockets of a negroid, and nor the rounded nasal structure of a negroid. Neither do they classify under Australoid and Mongoloid. And their DNA falls under caucasian too, a large percentage under J1 group.

HEY SLAV (SLAVE)..y don't u crawl back into ur cave and pick a side of the fence to stay on...THAT DNA SHIT ISN'T FOOL PROOF..neither are the MAN-MADE CLASSIFICATIONS put into place IN RECENT TIMES..

BOO-shit!